bridging that divide, looks hard at the moment but at the end of the day, the end of the day two, a lot of people in a lot of places, people hoping it can be done. we'll see you back live one hour from now at 10:00 p.m. for our panel show, ac 360 later. hope you join us for that. hope you join us for that. "piers morgan live" starts now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com this is "piers morgan live." welcome to the viewers in the united states and around the world. tonight, breaking news, of course, shut down showdown or rather shut down stalemate. listen to john boehner and harry reid a while ago after the meeting with the president. >> we've asked to sit down and resolve our differences. they don't want -- they will not negotiate. >> i said fine, we'll go to conference. all we want you to do is open the government. >> the government of the united states of america, still closed.

800,000 americans out of work and millions more suffering the effects of the shut down. i'll talk to some on those including a cancer patient supposed to start a trial and a worker who has no idea when she'll see her next paycheck. also, two congressman who couldn't disagree more go head-to-head and i'll get answers from one of america's top ceos, jack walsh. why leadership is lacking on both sides. amanda knox found not guilty and acquitted of the brutal murder of her roommate. that's not the end of the story. she's on trial again along with her ex. he tells me his side of the story in the first prime time interview. the biggest story in america, the shutdown day two. dana bash is live. any movement, really, since i spoke to you yesterday?

>> reporter: the only movement is that the president of the united states and four congressional leaders, two in each party sat down and faced each other eyeball to eyeball and talked. they heard each other face-to-face and not through you and i and others in the media. that's about it. i'm told by sources in both parties familiar with this meeting, piers, that there was no staff in the room, that it was very, very small intimate crowd of just the president, the vice president and four leaders and that the president did most of the talking, making clear his position that he is not going to negotiate, that he wants to have a clean, no strings attached bill to fund the government and then they can talk about other things. >> in terms of how people are viewing it in washington where in the end this deal will get resolved, where is the sympathy lying? is it with the president? are they making head wind with the argument he's to blame here? >> reporter: in washington not

so much. republicans have f you want to call them establish mtd, most in the establishment are scratching heads, rolling eyes saying enough already. i just want to actually play for you before i finish answering that, some of what happened outside the white house when we heard from leaders who talked after the meeting. >> the president reiterated one more time tonight that he will not negotiate. we've got divided government, democrats control the white house and senate, republicans control the house. >> we're through playing these little games and all focused on obamacare, that's what it's about. >> if they don't take yes for an answer, then i can only conclude they wanted a shutdown government. >> reporter: so piers, those arguments that you heard from democrats really do seem to be resinating again like i said with some of the republican establishment here in washington who say this is crazy, we shouldn't be doing this, but and this is the important but.

we talked to lots of conservative lawmakers who said they are hearing from constituents in districts, that a boy, they are getting calls keep the government shut down, this is the way to do it, you're fighting for principle. that lies the problem for john boehner as he tries to navigate this as there is 20 to 30 constituents, hard to breakthrough. >> dana bash, thank you very much indeed. putting everybody in the same room at the white house, think again. that happen todayed and absolutely nothing was achieved. now i want to turn to a really all-star panel that will go head-to-head. luke messer, adam shift the house led committee of intelligence. you disagree with each other. let me start with you luke messer. many people, most moderate republicans scratching their heads wondering what is going on here. what is going on here?

why are republicans causing all this mess work harder and worker to resolve it? >> listen, we've worked all day. we passed three bills, one that would fund the national parks, another that would make sure that we had the national institution of health open so that we could fund those that are trying to cure diseases. we don't want the government closed. we want to try to protect the american people from obama care, and i would echo the comments from your panel just a second ago, i have to tell you overwhelmingly in my district, people aren't applauding for closing the government. nobody wants the government closed but applauding us for standing up against obama care. >> adam shift, i mean, the president made it very, very clear he sees no reason why he should sacrifice any part of obamacare as part of some kind of political terrorism, as some are seeing it, on behalf of ted

cruz and some hard-lying tea party republicans. is that your position? can the president negotiate down from his current position? >> i think it's very hard because this is really an internal gop fight in the house so it's hard for the president to intervene in the gop fight and try to decide it and ultimately, it's a decision the speaker has to make. will he cater to this 30, 40 person tea party and let senator cruise run the house or say okay, this is nois non-sense, ts crazy. you know that stuff you democrats say about us republicans, this time it's true. they are governings and have responsibility to keep the doors open and it's hard for the president to intervene without setting a bad president not only for him but for future presidents that the majority in the house can extort the

president, can extort the country if they don't get what they want on unrelated issues. imagine if the democrats said we'll shut down the government if you don't pass gun safety legislation or give us something else we want. you just can't operate that way so the president i think has to maintain this line, and ultimately, i think the repun c -- republicans can't let this group shut down or burn down the house. >> let's hear a clip of what the president told cnbc today about his exacerbation. >> i have bent over backwards to work with the republican party, and have purposely kept my rhetoric down. i think i'm well-known for being a calm guy. sometimes people i think i'm too calm and am i kpas beer rated, absolutely because this is entirely unnecessary.

>> so, i want to put you two guys into a room right now, okay? you disagree on this, you could for argument sake be negotiators here. talk to each other. try and resolve this now. how would you two do it if you were the chosen representatives who were going to sort it out. let me start with you luke messer. talk to your opposite number. >> well, i think you start, piers -- >> don't talk to me, talk to adam shift -- [ overlapping speakers ] >> the president has said unless he gets -- >> unfortunately, i can't get the audio and this may be an illustration of the problem -- >> wait a minute -- >> i think the best -- >> one it funds the rest of government and try -- i believe it's this delay of the individual mandate. the president has already given about 12 different exceptions and delays under the law. he delayed it for businesses and i think he should do the same thing for individuals, if we come forward on that we have an opportunity to get something

done here. nobody wants to see the government continue to be closed. >> by a subline irony there, luke messer you couldn't hear me and adam shift couldn't hear you. >> is that right? >> the entire -- >> i can hear you both now. >> okay. so we're now all back in communication. [ laughter ] >> that was perhaps a perfect illustration of what happens in these situations, absolutely nobody can hear anybody else. adam shift, you're in the room now, luke messer opposite of you for argument sake, he's john boehner, what would your pitch be? >> you wouldn't want us doing this and threatening the full faith and credibility of the country but let's do this, you want another vote on obamacare, you want a vote on delay of obamacare or medical device tax? okay. we'll agree on a vote on that. we won't guarantee you'll win the vote. you have to deliver the votes but we're not going to allow you

to put a gun to our head, so let's reopen the government. we'll guarantee once the government is reopen you can have your votes in both chambers and let the majority decide both but you got to let the people's will be done in the house and you know and i know that if you took up a clean funding bill, we could send it to the president tonight because it has a majority of support in the house. it would pass i think very overwhelmingly. >> luke messer, everything i heard there seems sensible. certainly when you talk about obamacare, which is an existing law which the president has been reelected with that as one of the main planks of his first term, so what is your sensible co-her rent argument or why that is not an acceptable position? >> listen, history is littered with bad laws once in effect and changed. the fact this used to be a law or is a law, the fact it is a law is obviously relevant but it does by in and of itself

validate it. i think there is a path through this. i think the path includes coming to the table and talking. i mean, we've gotten to the point now where harry reed and the president have said that they won't even discuss possible changes to obamacare before we go through this process. i believe the american people expect more, and, you know, adam puts forward a potential resolution here where you would have a clean vote in both chambers on some of these changes. that's not what you've seen so far, what you've seen is sort of procedure votes that letsproced. the american people want more out of the leaders and we got to find a way to get it done. >> got to leave it there but that was a rational debate between you two. i would like to think this is the precurser between the big boys, mr. speaker and mr. president obama doing the same thing. a new yorker and what he's

doing to keep his business afloat and later, a matter of real life and death. a cancer patient worried he may not get into a clinical trial because of the shut downgoing on right now. [ male announcer ] this store knows how to handle a saturday crowd. ♪ [ male announcer ] the parking lot helps by letting us know who's coming. the carts keep everyone on the right track.

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all the national monuments are closed. as a matter of fact, anybody go to the harbor today to look at the statute of liberty? was going on -- >> look what you see. there is the at the few of liberty. they got it -- [ laughter ] >> they got it tarped up. >> david letterman having fun there with the shutdown. my next guest is not laughing, my next guest operates boat tours to the statute of liberty and his business is down 50, 60%. people can make jokes about this. to me the symbolic nature of the st statute of liberty being shut, what does it mean for you on the

sharp end? >> it's just outrageous for us, mr. morgan, eight months of closure to reopen on july 4th. we were in a pretty good economic hole to begin with. ellis island is yet to reopen prior to the closure. we're hopeful for october 28th, which is the statute's birthday, if you will, anniversary so at this point we're down, we would be lucky to break even had this not happened but now we will be 50 to 60% down every day, maybe more in revenue and at this point we have not laid off any employees, but, you know, as weeks go by we'll make adjustments like we did during sandy. >> unlike people that get furloughed that work for the government and so on, you have no hope of getting any of that money back, it's a straight write off, right? >> there is no recovery of the revenue and wages, it's a total

loss. >> final question, what is your personal view about the saw fta of liberty being closed for business? >> as an american and someone that worked around the statute for almost 30 years, it's outrageous, in fact, the statute cruises and other concession are hills who do the food and souvenirs to collectively we would pay fees to the united states government daily averaging $50,000. that's in flow to the united states government that are not coming in. over $16 million a year from just our two enterprises. $174 million worth of economic activity re10volves around. this headach this makes no sense whatsoever. >> i'm sorry for what you're going through, makes no sense and i hope you get back your business soon. >> thank you very much. i want to bring back jack

welsh. this is no way to run a business, is it jack? >> it's terrible. i mean, both sides deserve a spanking for this. the fact they are not talking and haven't been talking for the last six months, piers, terrible. >> we'll get to the republicans in a moment who everyone wants to blame. what i don't understand when i spoke to bill clinton and newt gingrich, when they went through the shut down they talked every single day, sometimes multiple times in a day, why is this not happening with the president? why are they not talking all the time? >> it took them 18 months to call them the head of the senate after getting elected. look, that's not the strong suit. the facts are, the only way you solve these problems is to smooz, if you will, when you're not in crisis. you don't want the negotiation to be the first date. you want to be dating all along when you come to the crisis so

you know where each other stands and what you can give and not give. >> on the principle, many people have sympathy obamacare is the law of the land and when he got reelected last year, john boehner said it's the law of the land. we lost the election and that must stand. now suddenly, he says the complete opposite. does the president have a good point do you think here, that it is simply wrong to be held to ransom by what many see as political terrorists? political terrorists? >> come on, piers, let's talk about that for a moment. >> we know the analogy. >> both sides are to blame here but let me give you another view of that. it was the law of the land and then the president said i think i'll change it. i think i'll give wages, i think i'll give companies a free ride for a year and by the way, i think i'll give $11,000 of families in congress and $5,000 to the individual. i think i'll do that.

but don't you dare do anything. don't you dare say let's delay and give people choice for a year or let's -- let's not get that tax on medical divisions when the country needs a growing, thriving medical business and we're taxing it for on entrepreneurs. >> you keep government going but negotiate and haggle and go into battle with the president. >> not something you don't talk to. now the republicans made a mistake by going over and defunding obamacare. this is a signature deal. he's got to have it done in some form, and they ought to have let that go and negotiate off the points he changed. he changed the employer mandate, okay. let's give -- let's give citizens a choice of going into it or waiting a year. >> if you had a remember gate when running ge, you were the

boss, the john boehner figure if you like, suddenly you got a ted cruise. >> i thought i was a better marketing guy than that. >> if you had a ted cruise, certainly burst out of nowhere and began to run your gig and call the shots, what would you do? >> i wouldn't deal with him but i would be listening to him to see what he had to say and i would be trying to figure out if he made any sense. in this case, i don't buy defunding the government, showing obamacare, we got to let it go but i do think what i would like to see is i would like to see this, the debt ceiling, which is far more important and sequester, thrown into a barrel. >> we'll get to that. that's a much bigger deal. some people think the game plan here for the republicans is keep the shut downgoing until the debt ceiling on the 17th and then they will be in a much

better bargaining position to draw the concessions they are after on a bigger scale. >> i don't think that's the case. i mean, if they shut down the government over not paying our bills, they will be staying for a long time. now if we throw -- but if you throw all three in, you got lots of give and take and we can see faith on both sides. >> right. >> let's give on the medical tax. let's give the democrats what they want in cost and sequester. let's -- we have more chips to play with and we can do it if we got a lot of things. now it's right on obamacare. if we put them in together, we got everything. >> in terms of the part of our nature in washington right now, we discussed this many times, many people find it increasingly disspiriting or shameful there is such victory on both sides. john boehner said the other night he's never known it so

poisonous. how do you change the way washington has now become? >> piers, i wrote a column today for linked in, talking about what leaders have to do. you can't just -- he can't hang out with democrats and john boehner can't hang out with republicans. you got to deal with adversaries. when i ran ge we met with a union all the time. ge had strikes in the '60s and '70s. we never had a strike in 21 years. we were talking face-to-face not the day of the negotiation but years in between it. they knew us. we knew their families. this is a human thing. these are the guys that are acting like robots who don't talk, who don't smooz, who don't be together, who don't hang out. it's wrong. the only way you get these things done is through human understanding, and this is being robotic. >> i completely agree with you.

it's not of then i say that. we normally go hammer and tongue but on this i agree with you. one of the government workers out of a job tonight, how she's explaining this to her young daughter and who is really to blame for the shutdown? [ crashing ] [ male announcer ] when your favorite food starts a fight, fight back fast with tums. heartburn relief that neutralizes acid on contact and goes to work in seconds. ♪ tum, tum tum tum tums! heartburn relief that neutralizes acid on contact when ouwe got a subaru.s born, it's where she said her first word. (little girl) no! saw her first day of school. (little girl) bye bye! made a best friend forever. the back seat of my subaru is where she grew up. what? (announcer) the two-thousand-fourteen subaru forester. (girl) what? (announcer) built to be there for your family. love.

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the shutdown having a huge and devastating effect, very real and costly for many people like natasha who works for the census burro and furloughed

because of the shutdown. welcome to you, natasha. how do you feel about this? how do you feel you've been sent home, no pay and you may or may not get paid for this period? >> i feel awful. the amazing employees of the united states census burro just want to go back to work. we want to be able to provide services to those that we support from federal, state, local, not for profit businesses throughout the world, and it's an awful feeling to know that i will not receive pay, and don't know when we'll get paid again. >> how do you feel about all the members of congress getting their salaries in this period? >> i don't think they should receive any pay. they need to know what it feels like to not having any resources, and to exhaust your savings and to use your credit cards to make it through this terrible ordeal that we all are experiencing right now. >> you have a five-year-old daughter, niela i think her name is. >> yes. >> what have you said to her

about this? >> it's difficult to explain to a 5-year-old that mommy is not working, we're not able to enjoy our activities as we once did going to the movies, going to the mall, just having a day at the park and just letting her know that when she sees something in the store, mommy is not able to buy it for her, a book or anything like that because, you know, 5-year-olds don't understand financial obligations. they don't understand what we're going through right now. so i have to try to explain to her the best way i can in her language, what we are going through and what we're not able to do at this time. >> i'm so sorry for what you're going through. it's completely disgusting and i hope it resolved quickly and you can get back to some normality. thanks for joining me. >> thank you. two days and counting both sides in the shutdown showdown are about as far apart as they could be. joining me now vallu valerie bl

wilson and the author of the new book "blow back" and the host of the ben ferguson show because his name is ben ferguson. start with you ben ferguson because you always got a lot to say about this. are you still pleased with yourself that the republicans have led the government into a melt down shut down affecting so many lives? >> you know, it's funny. i talked to ted cruiserlier today, we laughed over this one guy, one freshman junior senator is somehow able to shut down the government. it not physically possible. the president of the united states of america decided to again deny even after he met with republicans to say i refuse to negotiate on anything. now, let's look at that in comparison to just a week ago, week and a half ago. the president was willing to negotiate with assad who actually murdered his people and the broker for that deal was russia. how can you have that much ability to negotiate in that

situation but on something like this, you refuse to negotiate with the republicans, i'm sorry, i'm not buying into it and even ted cruilaug cruise laughed at >> it has nothing to do with ted cruise, as usual, it's democrats. >> he didn't shut down the government by himself he had the whole republican caucus with him 67 . they are being dragged along those in the caucus aligned with ted cruise but if these moderate republicans like peter king and those who say they will vote for a clean continuing resolution to reopen the government, if they wanted to, there is a procedure tactic to cause that to come to the floor and be passed. they haven't been willing to do that. republicans decided to shut down the government and he won't negotiate line is non-sense. >> they don't have the power. >> the offer on the table for the democrats is the same budget numbers agreed upon by the

president and republicans in congress through the budget control act. these are spending levels causing the federal states -- >> can i ask you one question -- >> we have an agreement on this. republicans are coming back -- >> ben ferguson wants to ask you one question. >> one question, when was the last time a federal budget was passed and signed into law by barack obama? >> it doesn't matter -- >> answer my question -- [ overlapping speakers ] >> the government -- >> when was the last time -- >> appropriations bills -- >> piers, piers -- [ overlapping speakers ] >> this is my point. >> a non-binding frame work. this is the way the federal budget process works. >> this is my point, he couldn't answer the question because barack obama has never done that. >> it doesn't matter. >> when you continue to have resolutions like this, at some point not having a budget is also an issue of not being a leader. you had an a former ceo whose brilliant moments go, would he ever run a company without an actual budget?

of course not. so the president got himself into this situation. he got himself into trouble by not having a budget for the federal government and having a law that people don't like now. >> let's turn to another consequence of this, agencies are apparently forced to furlough, 70% of the civilian employees. here is what james clapper had to say about this today. >> this seriously damages our ability to protect the safety and security of this nation and its citizens and the danger here, of course, this will accumulate over time. the damage will be insidious. >> are you a former cia spy, this is your wheelhouse, what do you think of what he had to say there? >> like every other american i'm absolutely appalled no advancement has been made and that the children at nih are being turned away and the terrible consequences you saw at the top of the segment

furloughed. so yes, of course it is very dangerous. i understand that essential intelligence officers work on counterterrorism affairs, they are still on the job, thank goodness, but that statement he went on to say and i was a little puzzled by it, he said that as a result of all these intelligence officers being furloughed, that they were somehow open to perhaps being recruited by a foreign intelligence service. i'm not sure he meant to employed because you don't get a paycheck that you will commit a tresous act. >> they are taken this to extremities but if 70% of all civilian employees of the spy agencies were sent home, i can't see how that can't have some damaging effect, whichever side of the debate you're on. >> absolutely across the board we're seeing it all these effects are going to begin to snowball. but i take it, you know, the

intelligence community already is so vast and big, we know about 60 to 70% of intelligence budget goes towards contractors. so it's not really clear what does the budgeting look like. i think it's too big to begin with. >> good point. stay with me. when we come back the real impact of washington's dysfunction, a cancer patient's clinical trial may be affected at the nih. oments of value. build character through quality. and earn the right to be called a classic. the lands' end no iron dress shirt. starting at 49 dollars. ♪ ♪ ♪

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greg's live has been turned upside down. he's a cancer patient supposed to start a clinical trial at the national institute of health in a few weeks and joins me with his oncologist. welcome to both of you. greg, tell me exactly what your position is right now and why you're so concerned about the shut down. >> well, i got diagnosed with sarcoma in march and i've been on various treatments since then going through both chemotherapy and radiation, and through these vario various regular monos none have worked for me, being able to hold off on the disease somewhat but new tumors are popping up occasionally with every set of scans is good news with bad news. so, this -- the clinical trial that i could be put on might be

something that might really help me out long term. >> and at the moment, is the situation this kind of trial is on hold for the duration of a shutdown? >> i think brian can answer that better. >> i actually called nih today and it's actually a good thing this trial is not effected because it's already open. but i think this caused greg a lot of distress with everything going on, and i think everything that we're doing to nih right now is actually quite dangerous and if we don't start impacting our -- the things we're doing and actually correcting it very quickly, we'll hurt people and we'll hurt people like greg and if we're not careful, the drugs that we really need to bring out from the labs all the way across to the clinical trials, it's going to slow down and affect everyone. >> greg, you're obviously going through the most stressful time on your life and you're literally in a life and death situation here, how do you feel about the fact politicians in

washington might and i say might at this stage have some effect on your chances of survival? >> i think it's pretty ridiculous that -- especially since the whole debate is over a healthcare law, like they are trying -- the end goal of this is try to help people like me try to get health insurance and get treatment and can't find a resolution and it's effecting people all over the country like me. >> greg, i wish you all the very best and all the people i've heard from in the last three or four days, yours is one of the most agonizing stories imageble. i hope they sort it out quickly and you can have this particular stress removed. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> thank you. so ben ferguson, let's be very serious about this for a moment because when you hear that kind of story, it is very serious, and you know when you hear a top oncologist saying

look, there is a real impact here at the sharp end of how we do our business, this is life and death that people are playing with. surely, whenever side of this argument you're on, it is time to get this sorted, isn't it? >> well, and i think look, my wife worked for seven years at a children's cancer research hospital and when you see these parents that are told their kids' scans don't go well, the entire world they are in crumbling around them and some of these clinical trials, last-ditch eorts sometimes to get something to work, this is not something you have time to wait on and you can see how partisan this is today. dana bash asked a brilliant question of harry reed and he went into political talking points so fast when i would plead seriously with the white house tonight to say here is one good step forward, we'll make sure these programs are not going to be effected. this will be something that will help americans, those fighting for their lives and it's going to be a place that republicans and democrats can be as a

starting point and that's something i would hope politics would stay out and harry reid would do the same thing because that would be moving in the right direction. >> hang on, hang on, ben. exactly as greg civil said, though, the irony, the hideous irony, this renegade group of republicans led by ted cruz led to the shut down of the government led by obamacare set up to help people like greg who fear they won't get the help. you must be aware this is a hideous irony. >> but the clinical trials we're talking about today that will affect his life are not directly going to have anything to do with obama care for months on end until the exchanges are active and open and working but then you get the coverage. we're talking about now with these clinical trials. there is a difference between life and death with cancer patients and sometimes that's weeks and months, not 2014. >> okay. let me -- >> there's a difference. >> the difference is that these

clinical trials impact relatively small number of people and very much impacted and should get the government back up to get back into it where obamacare can extend health insurance to 30 million people and goal one for the republican party at the national level over the last four years is trying to prevent them from getting health coverage and every step of the way they have been acting like they are acting in the interest, people are low incomes, all these republicans on the senate floor how oh, no, if obamacare comes in, people will lose jobs. meanwhile, this is something that actually acts for the betterment of these people and stop it. so it's completely scenical. >> if it's so good as you put it and no jobs lost and everything is roses out there, smelling like roses, then why is the president giving out more than a thousand exceptions to different companies unions and lobbyists who have a ton of money that the average american doesn't have to get out of obamacare if it's so great, why did he have to give

out more than a,0 thousand of them? >> big government programs are complicated and working them out is complicated like mitt romney, the guy they nominated in 2012, it took them a little while to get them on the road in massachusetts and it's popular. >> final word to valerie. what do you think of the poisonous atmosphere in washington right now? >> actually, i was the subject of partisan attacks -- >> civil -- partisan attacks. >> exactly. well it was very dark days for us, that's for sure. and living through that on a personal basis, very difficult. it is only gotten worse since then as famously, chip o'neil and president regan went out, they would fight tooth and nail during the day and after hours they would go out and could have a drink together and that doesn't seem we have now --

jer jerry -- most congress people are only playing to their particular narrow constituent see. there is no compromise. >> that's a good point. "blow back" is available now. thank you for coming in, josh, ben ferguson. one says why do you have him on? he ruins my dinner. that's why i have him on, to ruin the american dinner. coming next, amanda knox' ex-boyfriend joins us to talk about the shocking murder case and his relationship with amanda knox. just by talking to a helmet. it grabbed the patient's record before we even picked him up. it found out the doctor we needed was at st. anne's. wiggle your toes. [ driver ] and it got his okay on treatment from miles away. it even pulled strings with the stoplights. my ambulance talks with smoke alarms

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now she could use a hand. comfort keepers provides a variety of in-home services while truly connecting. comfort keepers. keeping the comforts of home. call now to learn more. what's important for me to say is just thank you to everyone who's believed in me, who's defended me, who has supported my family. >> amanda knox whose murder conviction was thrown out by the italian court. prosecutors are back in the italian courtroom trying to prove amanda knox and her boyfriend killed meredith kuchar. with us is raffaella sollecito

and his attorney. rauf fell lee, you are prepared to go back. >> a pleasure to be here. >> thanks for coming on the show. you're prepared to go back and face further questions? >> i willen back when the trial gets into the court. during the first hearing they just decided what's the schedule about this try. basically at the moment, i consubtled my lawyers. and they told me that there's no need this moment for me to be there. >> you're ate stallian. and this is an italian justice system. it's your country's justice system. how do you feel about the way they keep coming after you? why do you think it is that they simply don't want to believe the version of events and that you and amanda have put forward? >> no.

well, it's not just my version of the events or amanda's version of the events. it's the real facts that tell us that me and amanda are innocent. what's the -- i don't know what is going on in the mind of the judges. and i just think that in the italian system, there's something really wrong in the way -- in the rules that they sometimes they are not respected or they are turned to hurt people. and they can hurt actually innocent people. >> you'd only known amanda knox about a week when this happened. do you wish with hindsight that you'd never laid eyes on her, that you had never become embroiled in such a lurid crime scandal as it's become? >> yes. well, basically nobody would ever stay in a situation like

mine. my life now is hell. but it's not amanda's fault, the situation. this situation as a fault inside the investigation at the first site, and inside a persecution that didn't want to admit their faults. >> when the retrial began the court order add new test on a knife that was found in your kitchen, which had dna on it. what do you know about that knife? >> well, basically in my opinion just logically it's ridiculous that anybody would bring such a big knife from my house to another house. but in the investigation, the forensic science found that there's no trace of blood,

nothing about meredith kercher's dna, even if the prosecution say something different. but it was contaminated because they didn't respect the particles when they picked up that knife. >> final question for you, rafaele. i know meredith kercher's father. i used to work with him a bit in england. and they've suffered enormously from what has happened obviously to their daughter. although you describe your life as hellish and amanda has used similar terminology for her life now. obviously you're both still alive and have your lives. what is your message to meredith kercher's family? >> basically i feel a lot of compassion for their situation. and it's horrible. because their daughter is no more in this world. but i'm not responsible for

that. me and amanda, we had nothing to do with this crime. and what i really want is that we don't need this tragedy more victims. meredith had been horribly murdered. and if it came to my sister, i will get crazy as well. but i'm just begging to look at the real facts and the truth about this case. >> okay. let me bring in john kelly quickly, john. what do you think will be the outcome of this latest stage of this? and how do you feel about the legal process? >> well, it's a little different than ours, first of all. this is the third time round where the court's going to be hearing evidence and making a decision about innocence and guilt. and quite likely it will go up on appeal again regardless of the results. so this is going to be a legal ping pong battle probably for

the next five years with the fate of amanda and rafaele hanging in the balance all this time. that's a difficult situation, a human tragedy for the kerchers and a travesty of justice for amanda and rafaele. >> john, you've always been a strong supporter of amanda knox's's. it's a very divisive case. many people have strong opinions on both side of this. why do you feel so strongly with your exemplary back legal background she is 100% innocent? >> mr. morgan, five years ago, october of 2008, less than a year after the murder of meredith kercher, rudy gaday, overwhelming evidence meredith's blood, his palm print. dna all over her body and on her clothes. admits to being there. was convicted and sentenced to 30 years in prison, later reduced on appeal. he is the sole killer.

these two young people have been victims themselves. my heart goes out to the kercher family. i cry for the kercher family. i pray for the kercher family. but the fact is, these two young people are victims themselves. they have been terrorized by this process that got way out of control. and it's just a crying shame. there is absolutely -- the second trial, the judge said there is no evidence. >> judge heavey, thank you for those words. john kelly good to see you again. rafaele, thanks for joining me as well. that's all for us tonight. tomorrow "piers morgan tonight" live town hall special. a pretty lively and animated audience. "ac 360 later" though starts in a few minutes.